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Discussion Starter #1
I know I was on a thread on this page w/ posts totally related to my question(s), but can't find it for the life of me! I also can't figure out how to keyword search on this page either - so, if you have insight on that, thanks - sorry for the repeat question/issues:

Hey guys - interested in some feedback/confirmation:

I drive a 2017 Traverse LT w/ about 70k miles on it. A few weeks ago i started to experience performance issues while traveling about 55/60 mph..would lose power momentarily, then be okay, then lose again for longer period, then okay, etc. Got to my destination, started it again and the issues worsened. Got to an Advanced Auto Part store. He ran the codes and came up w/ 2 fuel sensor related readouts - employee recommended a fuel cleaner and advised I fill up w/ gas - it was low. Less than an 1/8 tank, but no low fuel light, yet. It was on my to do list!

Anyway, traffic was heavy, i was nervous to get back on the road to get to gas station, so had husband come drive it - i followed to gas station, he had no performance issues those few blocks down the road. Filled up and drove it 15 miles home - no loss of power/performance issues.

Husband took it to our mechanic and by the time they got around to test driving it, the check engine light turned off. They read the history and found same sensor codes, but couldn't tell what the issue was.

2 weeks later - last night i go to start the car, again, gas is aBOVE 1/8 tank and it struggles to start, before i get out of driveway, check engine light comes on...i get to gas station 1 mile away, fill it - drove it about 60 miles round trip last night and this morning - no performance issues. Get to mechanic this morning, by the time they go to read codes, check engine light is off again - historical codes read the same and also at one point read that there was 0% fuel in the tank when it threw the code last night.

So - what is up!?? is my fuel sensor(s)/pump garbage? Is my fuel gauge totally inaccurate and i'm basically out of gas when i'm around 1/8 tank?? We have a 10 hour drive coming up in a couple of weeks for which we REALLY don't want to be dealing w/ loss of power w/ our 3 kids in the car, driving from NC to FL...quite frankly, i'm scared to death at this point!
 

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Best guess - Could be a blocked screen on the fuel intake or a defective fuel pump but would get similar results from a fuel cap with a stuck or fluky vent.



For my .02 - The first, easiest and cost free check should be fuel tank cap. If the vent on the cap is inoperative, a vacuum is pulled on the fuel in the tank, increases as fuel is used and eventually engine fuel starves. Won't set a separate code if blocked but effects could trigger other codes



If blocked failure condition will vary depending upon volume of gas in tank and rate and length it is being used. Problem may go away with time and letting it sit if there is slight if leakage back into the tank. Easy to test/diagnose - when it happens simply remove and replace the gas cap (if really bad might hear a slight vacuum sound when unscrewed) - if it is a bad gas cap vent the power will immediately resume.
 

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You should never drive a car with such low gas. The fuel pump is cooled by the gas and when it is low, the pump gets hotter, shortening or ending it's life. Also, junk that is floating around gets sucked up into the filter/pump when you run it that low on gas. That's for the pump in the tank. The high pressure pump, I have not idea on, but if it can't get gas fed to it, it can't pressurize it in the cylinder.
 

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Nbunner32, is your vehicle an AWD?
 

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hold.....
 

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Engine Performance and Fuel Range Conditions

March 29, 2019



A lack of engine performance along with an incorrect low fuel range display may be found on some

2017-2018 Acadia, Enclave, Traverse and XT5 models equipped with the 3.6L V6 engine (RPOs LFY, LGX) and all-wheel-drive (AWD).

The following DTCs also may be set in the Engine Control Module (ECM):

  • P018B: Fuel Pressure Sensor Performance
  • P2635: Fuel Pump Flow Performance
  • P0461: Fuel Level Sensor 1 Performance
  • P0462: Fuel Level Sensor 1 Circuit Low Voltage
  • P0463: Fuel Level Sensor 1 Circuit High Voltage
  • P0464: Fuel Level Sensor 1 Circuit Intermittent
  • P2066: Fuel Level Sensor 2 Performance
  • P2067: Fuel Level Sensor 2 Circuit Low Voltage
  • P2068: Fuel Level Sensor 2 Circuit High Voltage


These conditions may be caused by a partially or completely blocked port on the primary in-tank fuel pump module transfer jet manifold. The blockage of the port inhibits the suction to the fuel transfer line, which leads to an inability to transfer fuel from the secondary side on fuel tanks of AWD models.
AWD models have a fuel tank with a saddle configuration in order to provide space for the driveshaft through the center area of the fuel tank. Because of the saddle shape of the tank, two fuel tank fuel pump modules are required. (Fig. 15) Fuel is drawn from the secondary side of the fuel tank, through the fuel transfer pipe, to the primary side of the fuel tank.





To diagnose this condition, check fuel lever sensor resistance for both fuel level sensors at the x350 connector (Chassis Harness to Fuel Tank Harness). (Fig. 16) If the primary and secondary sensors are both at 250 ohms, it indicates that the entire tank is empty and the transfer of fuel is occurring. Check the operation of the fuel gauge. However, if the primary sensor is at 250 ohms, but the secondary sensor is less than 250 ohms, it indicates that the primary side is empty, yet the secondary side has fuel.





Using care, lower the fuel tank, leaving any remaining fuel on the secondary side. Verify the transfer hose is connected to the secondary sender base and the fuel level sensor moves freely. Also check the function of the primary fuel level sender verify that it sweeps freely with no interference. Both fuel level sensor readings sweep from 40-250 ohms.
If there is fuel on the secondary side and there are no other concerns, replace the primary fuel pump module. If the primary fuel pump module is found to be the cause, only replace the pump module and not the fuel level sensor.
Next, confirm fuel level sensor resistance for both fuel level sensors at the x350 connector and compare to the initial readings.
Install the fuel tank (with the fuel on the secondary side) and add a gallon of fuel, which will go to primary side. Start the engine and allow time for the primary fuel pump module transfer jet to pull the fuel from the secondary side.
Measure the x350 connector fuel level sensor resistances and verify that the secondary fuel level sensor resistance goes toward approximately 250 ohms and the primary fuel level sensor resistance goes down from 250 ohms toward 40 ohms.
Refer to Bulletin #18-NA-365 for additional information.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
I shared this w/ my mechanic because I don't speak this language :) Thank you VERY much for the information!!
 

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Discussion Starter #10
You should never drive a car with such low gas. The fuel pump is cooled by the gas and when it is low, the pump gets hotter, shortening or ending it's life. Also, junk that is floating around gets sucked up into the filter/pump when you run it that low on gas. That's for the pump in the tank. The high pressure pump, I have not idea on, but if it can't get gas fed to it, it can't pressurize it in the cylinder.
. In regard to this, I'm not arguing with you, but trying to figure out how/why (after driving an Outlook and a traverse prior to this 2017 traverse) and never, on a regular basis, running the tank to the fuel light, let alone completely low, did I not have this issue prior? Additionally, if driving with 1/4-1/8 of a tank left is considered running it LOW, why doesn't the add fuel light come on at that point, on an effort to save a crappy pump system from the effects you've listed? I'm mostly just preparing my complaint to GM. Finally, I read exactly 217 references to fuel in my owners manual, and not one mentions the need to ensure keeping gas above 1/8 tank to preserve life of pump. Very rarely do I even allow this car to get to a low fuel light! This is just so mind boggling!
 

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. In regard to this, I'm not arguing with you, but trying to figure out how/why (after driving an Outlook and a traverse prior to this 2017 traverse) and never, on a regular basis, running the tank to the fuel light, let alone completely low, did I not have this issue prior? Additionally, if driving with 1/4-1/8 of a tank left is considered running it LOW, why doesn't the add fuel light come on at that point, on an effort to save a crappy pump system from the effects you've listed? I'm mostly just preparing my complaint to GM. Finally, I read exactly 217 references to fuel in my owners manual, and not one mentions the need to ensure keeping gas above 1/8 tank to preserve life of pump. Very rarely do I even allow this car to get to a low fuel light! This is just so mind boggling!
In tank fuel pumps have been around for years and have used the fuel for cooling for years. Not taking it down to empty isn't a new recommendation. I've told my wife for years not to let it get too low.

Owners Manual does state "Refuel as soon as possible" when the light does come on.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
. In regard to this, I'm not arguing with you, but trying to figure out how/why (after driving an Outlook and a traverse prior to this 2017 traverse) and never, on a regular basis, running the tank to the fuel light, let alone completely low, did I not have this issue prior? Additionally, if driving with 1/4-1/8 of a tank left is considered running it LOW, why doesn't the add fuel light come on at that point, on an effort to save a crappy pump system from the effects you've listed? I'm mostly just preparing my complaint to GM. Finally, I read exactly 217 references to fuel in my owners manual, and not one mentions the need to ensure keeping gas above 1/8 tank to preserve life of pump. Very rarely do I even allow this car to get to a low fuel light! This is just so mind boggling!
In tank fuel pumps have been around for years and have used the fuel for cooling for years. Not taking it down to empty isn't a new recommendation. I've told my wife for years not to let it get too low.

Owners Manual does state "Refuel as soon as possible" when the light does come on.
I understand; I very rarely allowed the low fuel message to come on.
 

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I must admit that I am guilty of driving around town with the "fuel level low" first in the 2008 Saturn. I knew that I had several gallons left in the tank when this indicator came on so I wasn't concerned about running low. About a couple of dozen times, when I was low, when I tried to start, it took a couple of attempts to start, I guess the first attempt just built up the fuel pressure and the second attempt was successful.
On my 2015 Enclave AWD, when I get the low fuel indicator, I know I have 5-6 gallons left.
This topic caused me to hook up the Blue Driver Tool last night and take a drive. I had the low fuel indicator for the last day and drove to work and back once with it. In the driveway, the app said I had 15% fuel left, while I was driving it said 0%. When I got back home it said 10%. I am going to fill it up now, I am predicting a 20 gallon or so fill up.
Sorry we got off topic a bit but since you never had this problem in the 70,000 miles before, maybe a purge valve is going towards failure. Hopefully we can put our heads together and figure it out.
 

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I don't know where this "info" about heat build up in the in tank fuel pump came from. But it is silly. What happens driving in the desert. Why don't low fuel warnings come on long before reaching 1/8. Why are there ABSOLUTELY NO warnings in ANY owners manuals about driving with less than 1/8 of a tank?
The stuff that might be floating around lays in the bottom of the tank ALL the time. That's why they use a super fine double mesh filter on the fuel pumps and an even finer gas filter in line outside the tank for easy maintenance.
 

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Well, when you run low on gas, the fuel pump can heat up since it is cooled by the gas. As far as the stuff floating around, when you are low on gas, it is more concentrated in one area and the stuff that usually can float on top of the gas is now floating at the top of the gas on the bottom of the tank. So, it can get sucked in to the screen and block flow. Just because you haven't experienced it before, doesn't mean it doesn't happen. I didn't mean it can be ruined by doing it once, but repeatedly, it can lead to failure. And even if someone has 15% percent left in the tank, as the gas moves around from front to back, the pump can be exposed just like it's really low. The fuel idiot light is there as a last warning that you may be walking soon.
 

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I don't know where this "info" about heat build up in the in tank fuel pump came from. But it is silly. What happens driving in the desert. Why don't low fuel warnings come on long before reaching 1/8. Why are there ABSOLUTELY NO warnings in ANY owners manuals about driving with less than 1/8 of a tank?
The stuff that might be floating around lays in the bottom of the tank ALL the time. That's why they use a super fine double mesh filter on the fuel pumps and an even finer gas filter in line outside the tank for easy maintenance.
Do you really think say, 120F ambient is close to the heat that would build in an electric pump without cooling from a heat sink source (in this case gasoline)?

Also inline filters downstream of the pump have been VE'd out for about a decade or so in most vehicles now. The fuel pumps have a sock on the pickup, which will never get serviced except on module failure. Best to keep it clean.

The owner's manual isn't interested in telling you something that likely won't be an issue until long after the warranty is up, at which point it's money in the dealer's pocket. Does the owner's manual ever suggest changing brake fluid ;)
 

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My 2019 had a in line fuel filter as well as my 07 and 99. Those pumps run at about 100°F. Not even warm enough to warm your hands on a cold day. They WILL NOT OVERHEAT running uncovered without fuel covering them. As for brake fluid changes it's another marketing scheme to get you to buy maintenance that is NOT necessary. Think it's going to spoil like meat or milk? It was another idea to get vehicles back in to the service departments and quick change franchises. Unless you're going to R&R and rebuild or replace master,calipers,hoses and brake lines it's just a waste of hard earned dollars.

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk
 

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My 2019 had a in line fuel filter as well as my 07 and 99. Those pumps run at about 100°F. Not even warm enough to warm your hands on a cold day. They WILL NOT OVERHEAT running uncovered without fuel covering them. As for brake fluid changes it's another marketing scheme to get you to buy maintenance that is NOT necessary. Think it's going to spoil like meat or milk? It was another idea to get vehicles back in to the service departments and quick change franchises. Unless you're going to R&R and rebuild or replace master,calipers,hoses and brake lines it's just a waste of hard earned dollars.

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk
Your '19 what has an inline fuel filter? They are pretty much nonexistent now since the early 2000s. The last car I had with an inline filter was a 2003 Blazer, and my '01 TA has one. No car since has had one, and the Traverse does not.


And yes brake fluid certainly does have a useful life, it is hygroscopic and your reservoir isn't hermetically sealed. Should be flushed and bled everytime you do the pads. I wouldn't know about dealer marketing schemes, I do my own maintenance. Don't even bother with the free oil changes.
 
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