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Author Topic: Timing chain discussion/CEL/P008 and P0017  (Read 177980 times)
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G_Tech
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« on: January 07, 2010, 11:56:46 AM »

Hi Everyone,

I've recently started having problems with my '09 Traverse with the check engine light being on and the two codes P0008 and P0017 being stored.
The car has about 18,700 miles on the clock. Took it the dealer and they claimed to have cleared the codes and that they couldn't replicate the problem. They also said the 'engine oil was dirty'. The oil only had 3300 miles on it and I mostly do highway driving (changed ever 5K miles). So I had them change the oil and claimed this problem was resolved. Within 5 minutes of picking up the car, the check engine light came on again. Pulled my code reader out of the glove box and again the same 2 codes. Went right back and told them about it but I haven't returned it to be checked out again yet.

I know that the Acadias and Outlooks had timing chain issues that caused this type of problem but I would have thought this issue should have been resolved by the time the Traverses were released in late 2008. The car has reduced power and the gas milage has decreased by about 15-20%.
And with a bit of further internet research I found a document, PIP3423B, that doesn't list the Traverse but all of other GM models with the LLT LP1 and LY7 engines. Here is an excerpt from the document:

Condition/Concern: Vehicles with 3.6 LY7, 3.6 LLT or 2.8 LP1 may exhibit DTC P0016, P0017, P0018, P0019, P0008 or P0009.
Recommendation/Instructions: The reluctor for the crankshaft sensor pressed on the crankshaft may have moved. Refer to attached photographs for exact location. If the reluctor has moved then replace crankshaft.

Has anyone with an early model '09 Traverse had a similar problem?
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« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2010, 02:06:26 PM »

I think youre the 1st on here to report this issue on a traverse...
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« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2010, 02:10:01 PM »

I looked around and found this, it might be of some help. http://www.enclaveforum.net/index.php?topic=5526.0
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« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2010, 11:15:50 AM »

From page 9-42 of the Service Manual;

DTC P0008: Engine Position System Performance Bank 1

Circuit/System Description: The engine Control Module (ECM) tests for a misalignment between both camshafts on one bank of the engine & the crankshaft.  The misalignment would be at an idler sprocket for either bank or at the crankshaft.  Once the ECM learns the position of both camshafts on one bank of the engine, the ECM compares the learned values to a reference value.  The ECM will set a DTC if both learned values for one bank of the engine are exceeding a calibrated threshold in the same direction.

Conditions for running the DTC:
- engine operating for > 50 seconds
- engine coolant between 0-95 C (32-203 F)
- calculated engine oil temp < 120 C (248 F)
- the engine must accelerate such that the CMP actuator system is commanded from the park position to the phased position.  This is considered a cam control cycle.  There must be a minimum of 2 cam control cycles for at least 2.5 seconds each, in the phased position.
- DTC 0008 run continuously once the above conditions are met, approx 600 seconds

Conditions for setting the DTC:
The ECM detects that both camshafts on either bank of the engine are mis-aligned with the crankshaft, greater than 6 degrees, for greater than 4 seconds or a cumulative of 30 seconds.

Diagnostic Aids:
The presence of DTC P0008 along with P0016, P0017, P0018 and P0019 indicates a possible condition with the primary timing chain and the alignment between both intermediate sprockets and the crankshaft.  Or, the crankshaft reluctor wheel has moved and is no longer referenced to top dead center (TDC)
Observe the scan tool CMP Desired, Actual, and Angle Variance parameters before a DTC sets.  This may help to isolate whether a condition is specific to one camshaft, one bank, or caused by a condition with the primary crankshaft timing.

Circuit / System Verification
1. Clear the DTCs with a scan tool
2. Allow the engine to reach the normal operating temperature.
3. Idle the engine for 10 minutes or until a DTC sets.  Observe the DTC info with a scan tool, DTC 0008 should not be set.
4. Operate the vehicle within the "Conditions for Running the DTC" to verify the DTC does not reset.

Circuit/System Testing
1. Inspect the timing chains and tensioners for excessive wear or misalignment - repair as necessary
2. Inspect the crankshaft reluctor wheel for being mis-positioned on the crankshaft - repair as necessary

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KK
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« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2010, 11:30:13 AM »

From page 9-49 of the Service Manual

DTC P0017: Crankshaft Position (CKP) - Exhaust Camshaft Position (CMP) Correlation Bank 1

Circuit / System Description
The camshaft position (CMP) Actuator system enables the engine control module (ECM) to change the timing of the camshafts while the engine is operating.  The CMP actuator solenoid signal from the ECM is pulse width modulated (PWM). The ECM controls the CMP actuator solenoid duty cycle by controlling the amount of solenoid ON time.  The CMP actuator solenoid controls the advance or the retard of each camshaft.  The CMP actuator solenoid controls the oil flow that applies the pressure to advance or retard the camshafts.  Ignition voltage is supplied directly to the CMP actuator solenoid.  The ECM controls the solenoid by grounding the control circuit with a solid state device called a driver.  The ECM compares the camshaft position or the camshaft angle, to the position of the crankshaft.

Conditions for Running the DTC
- engine operating for > 50 seconds
- engine coolant between 0-95 C (32-203 F)
- calculated engine oil temp < 120 C (248 F)
- the engine must accelerate such that the CMP actuator system is commanded from the park position to the phased position.  This is considered a cam control cycle.  There must be a minimum of 2 cam control cycles for at least 2.5 seconds each, in the phased position.
- DTC 0017 run continuously once the above conditions are met, approx 600 seconds

Conditions for Setting the DTC
1. The ECM detects one of the following conditions:
- The ECM detects a deviation in the relationship between a camshaft & the crankshaft
- A camshaft is greater than 10 degrees advanced in relationship to the crankshaft
- A camshaft is greater than 10 degrees retarded in relationship to the crankshaft
2. The ECM detects the difference between an actual intake camshaft angle and the locked position angle is greater than 15 degrees
3. The ECM detects the difference between an actual exhaust camshaft angle and the locked position angle is greater than 21 degrees
4. The condition exists for greater than 4 seconds or a cumulative of 30 seconds

Same Diagnostic aids as P0008

Circuit / System Testing
1. Ignition ON, observe the DTC info with a scan tool.  Verify that none of the DTCs are set
2. Idle the engine at normal operating temp for 10 minutes.  DTC should not be set
-> If a DTC sets, inspect for the following;
- The correct installation of the camshaft sensors
- The correct installation of the crankshaft sensor
- A timing chain tensioner condition
- An incorrectly installed timing chain
- Excessive play in the timing chain
- A timing chain that jumped teeth
- A crankshaft reluctor wheel that has moved in relationship to top dead center (TDC) on the crankshaft.
3. Operate the vehicle within the "conditions for the running the DTC".
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KK
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« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2010, 11:35:43 AM »

nice info Double K.
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« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2010, 11:36:46 AM »

G_Tech - armed with this new information, please come back & advise us what the dealership tells you, or what they do to fix it.  And like any good patient who's having heart troubles, please get a second opinion from a different doctor, I mean dealer.
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« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2010, 12:57:14 PM »

Hi everyone!  I just signed up for this forum after searching the code P0008 for my 2009 Traverse.  I too had the same code come up when my check engine light came on at approx 40,000 in December.  I had the light cleared and it stayed off for 2 weeks, then I had it checked and cleared again where it came on one day later.  I brought it back to the dealership, they cleared the code and said it was all set, ten minutes later the light came on.  It has been to the dealer 4 times now and GM has advised them that the engine oil was dirty and that "too much gunk" was built up on the timing chain.  They also advised the dealership to change the oil and "flush it".  After they did this the light stayed off for approximately 100 miles.  Same deal, brought the Traverse back, where they changed the oil, reset the light and then it came back on after 10-15 miles.  I just had the light reset this morning at the dealership and GM had told them to have me "record the mileage".  It took 28 miles to come back on. 

According to the dealership GM has not come across many of these issues and this is what they are having the dealers do.  After I called the service advisor this morning to tell him the light came on after 28 miles and he told me that the service manager was going to contact GM again and let them know.  He also warned me that they may need to take tear the engine down to find the problem, the issue with this is that there are no GM mechanics in my area who are "trained" to work on the engine.  I'm frustrated because of having to go back so many times, what can I do?

HELP! Help
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« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2010, 01:26:32 PM »

I just signed up for this forum after searching the code P0008 for my 2009 Traverse. 

After I called the service advisor this morning to tell him the light came on after 28 miles and he told me that the service manager was going to contact GM again and let them know.  He also warned me that they may need to take tear the engine down to find the problem, the issue with this is that there are no GM mechanics in my area who are "trained" to work on the engine.  I'm frustrated because of having to go back so many times, what can I do?

This for sure isnt good. Very frustrating. For sure let us know how things progress.
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« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2010, 04:47:52 PM »

Hi everyone!  I just signed up for this forum after searching the code P0008 for my 2009 Traverse.  I too had the same code come up when my check engine light came on at approx 40,000 in December.  I had the light cleared and it stayed off for 2 weeks, then I had it checked and cleared again where it came on one day later.  I brought it back to the dealership, they cleared the code and said it was all set, ten minutes later the light came on.  It has been to the dealer 4 times now and GM has advised them that the engine oil was dirty and that "too much gunk" was built up on the timing chain.  They also advised the dealership to change the oil and "flush it".  After they did this the light stayed off for approximately 100 miles.  Same deal, brought the Traverse back, where they changed the oil, reset the light and then it came back on after 10-15 miles.  I just had the light reset this morning at the dealership and GM had told them to have me "record the mileage".  It took 28 miles to come back on.  

According to the dealership GM has not come across many of these issues and this is what they are having the dealers do.  After I called the service advisor this morning to tell him the light came on after 28 miles and he told me that the service manager was going to contact GM again and let them know.  He also warned me that they may need to take tear the engine down to find the problem, the issue with this is that there are no GM mechanics in my area who are "trained" to work on the engine.  I'm frustrated because of having to go back so many times, what can I do?

HELP! Help

I'll try to assist here, if I can. I will give you facts, I'm confident you understand this issue cannot be handled with high emotion, threats, screaming or fists. It just don't work that way.

First, welcome to the Traverse site, you'll find much information from many fine folks.

You don't say where you are located, but you may be in line for the lemon law buy back, depending on your state. Where are you?

You also say you have 40,000 miles? on your vehicle, seems like a lot for a '09. Clarify, please.

Have you had a meeting with the dealerships' service manager or service director, regarding this issue?  The service advisor won't help, at this point, you need to go beyond, perhaps way beyond. To take things in an orderly manner is the best approach, for you and for Chevrolet.

My initial concern is with the "management" of your dealership ..... it is glaring at me. If they have not had the interest to send their techs to GM Training for the engine, how caring are these folks about their business and their customers? To me, that's a real big red flag ! It tells me to get out and FAST !

I don't understand how the dealership has avoided the issue of training, since the ASM ( Area Service Manager ) from Chevrolet has all the facts and figures as to who is going to school and for what classes. GM Training has ALWAYS been a high priority, and with the technology in todays vehicles, training is even more important. Chevrolets' intentions are good, but the good intentions fall apart many times when it gets to the dealership level. Some dealers are simply not "customer orientated", when it comes to customer service satisfaction. A sorry statement, but accurate.

I don't see a happy ending here, at this dealership .... if the techs don't know what they are doing, it's an uphill battle. Don't allow this dealership to take your engine apart!!  I would request, in a professional manner, the opportunity to sit down and speak with the Chevrolet Area Service Manager, who is the factory representative for your selling dealerships' service department. I would make this request either through your service manager, and if Mr or MS Service Manager acts like they're not interested in assisting you, I would contact Chevrolet Customer Service and ask them to make arrangements for you to take your vehicle to a Chevrolet facility where the techs are up to speed with training and the service management is willing to assist. If you have a problem with the person at Chevrolet Customer Service, ask to speak with the Chevrolet Customer Service Manager.

If it were my vehicle and I was going through the frustration you are experiencing, I would find another facility.

It is ALWAYS good to have Chevrolet guiding your direction as to where you go, for the next dealer will be well aware of your concerns ( through Chevrolet ) and the next dealer will be aware that you are an indivdual who knows and understands how to get assistance ....through Chevrolet.

My history is with Chevrolet, if I can assist here online, I will do my best for you.

Good Luck.

Bob
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« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2010, 04:54:24 PM »

Okay I just had my check engine light come on. I have an 09 with 23000 miles on it.  My dealer told my husband (I want to talk to them myself) that the sensor for the oil life must be malfunctioning.  It said I had 10% life left and it had been 12 k since my last change.  (The dealer had assured me on my vehicle that I could go by that sensor and be fine.) They said my oil was "dirty/gunky" and that caused my TIMING CHAIN TO STRETCH!!!!  Holy cow!!!  Now they are going to replace the timing chain but must order the parts and the guy that is trained to do that is currently busy.  In the meantime they told me that it would be fine to drive so the hubby is going to pick it up.  I am so bummed about this problem.  Not sure I trust it to drive but if it blows... We'll see.  I am a diehard chevy person but the last 4 vehicles I have had (all brand new) have had problems that had multiple visits and were never resolved, I traded them in on the next "problem child" car.  Makes me want to buy a (gasp) Ford. Help  Thoughts?Huh?
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« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2010, 04:59:47 PM »

Okay I just had my check engine light come on. I have an 09 with 23000 miles on it.  My dealer told my husband (I want to talk to them myself) that the sensor for the oil life must be malfunctioning.  It said I had 10% life left and it had been 12 k since my last change.  (The dealer had assured me on my vehicle that I could go by that sensor and be fine.) They said my oil was "dirty/gunky" and that caused my TIMING CHAIN TO STRETCH!!!!  Holy cow!!!  Now they are going to replace the timing chain but must order the parts and the guy that is trained to do that is currently busy.  In the meantime they told me that it would be fine to drive so the hubby is going to pick it up.  I am so bummed about this problem.  Not sure I trust it to drive but if it blows... We'll see.  I am a diehard chevy person but the last 4 vehicles I have had (all brand new) have had problems that had multiple visits and were never resolved, I traded them in on the next "problem child" car.  Makes me want to buy a (gasp) Ford. Help  Thoughts?Huh?

Read my note above. It may help.

Bob
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« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2010, 05:12:09 PM »

My dealer told my husband (I want to talk to them myself) that the sensor for the oil life must be malfunctioning.  It said I had 10% life left and it had been 12 k since my last change.  (The dealer had assured me on my vehicle that I could go by that sensor and be fine.)

So the check engine light was directly attributable to the OLM malfunction or was it for something else? Surely they did not concluded a wonky OLM just based upon this anecdotal 'evidence' (i.e. 12k miles and 10% OLM) :Smiley ?

Depending on your driving habits it is definitely possible to accumulate 12k miles with 10% showing on the OLM. How would you characterize your driving routine? Is there a lot of HWY miles?

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« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2010, 06:26:23 PM »

Heather--- the OLM uses MANY different inputs to calculat OIL life. it is not 1 sensor.
it takes into consideration- engine temps, rpms, oil type, etc... many variables.

you mention 12,000 and 10% left... that seems to agree with my 2010...
I just changed oil with 5154 miles on it-- and the OLM said 50% life... so I can theoretically reach up to 10-11,000 miles by the way im driving here in LA.
( I change my oil to have it analyzed and get a good feel for the OLM accuracy ON THIS ENGINE)....

I trust the OLM on my 2003 Trailblazer--- as it goes 11500 miles between oil changes- and oil analysis are good.


hmmm, im not sure dirty oil can stretch a metal chain...
If I recall there was an issue with some timing chains on early 09's? but let us know what they say about this...
I know theres some Lambdas with the issue of dirty oil making some sensor  go off and illuminate the CEL- this being related to the camshaft somehow...

But theres a few of us here who are having oil analysis done to get a good feel for the OLM accuracy on the 3.9 DI.



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« Reply #14 on: February 05, 2010, 07:34:55 PM »

Heather--- the OLM uses MANY different inputs to calculat OIL life. it is not 1 sensor.
it takes into consideration- engine temps, rpms, oil type, etc... many variables.

OLM does not take into consideratiion "oil type". That is, it cannot tell if the oil in the sump is dino or synthetic.

hmmm, im not sure dirty oil can stretch a metal chain...

Yes, it is this kind of misinformation that further reinforces the stereotype that dealerships don't provide quality service. And even though the repair will be covered under warranty would you trust this same dealership to do such an involved repair when their analysis of the original problem is almost for sure incorrect. The engine may need a new timing chain but it is not due to the condition of the oil  :Smiley.
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« Reply #15 on: February 05, 2010, 08:42:33 PM »

what I meant to say by oil type-- is that our 3.9 DI is programmed to take oil properties of dino oil....
the 3.6 DI in the Caddy- I believe comes with Synthetic oil- and thus is programmed to take those properties into the calculation of oil life....
(Corvettes and SS trailblazers for example also come with Synthetic from the factory- and those use the synthetics properties to determine Oil life)...

and yes--- it cannot tell if theres synthetic or dino,...
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« Reply #16 on: February 06, 2010, 06:07:56 AM »

the 3.6 DI in the Caddy- I believe comes with Synthetic oil- and thus is programmed to take those properties into the calculation of oil life....

I never understood this; that is, why do the 09 and 10 Lambdas, equipped with essentially the same engine (3.6 DI) as the CTS Caddy, come from the factory with dino (rather than synthetic) and have lesser oil requirements than its richer cousins e.g. the CTS (i.e. GM 6094M oil rather than the high temp 4718M rated oil) Huh?? This is one reason why I will only use a 4178M synthetic oil in our Traverse. 'What is good for the goose should be good for the gander'  wink.

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« Reply #17 on: February 06, 2010, 09:02:53 AM »

Doesn't the Enclave come with Mobil 1 FF?  What you're saying Copper makes sense especially since we're talking about a vehicle that weighs at least another 1000 pounds and will constantly put more load on the engine.  We will put Mobil 1 in ours as soon as all is broken in and seated properly as our Traverse sees 90% city driving for less than 5 miles at a time.
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« Reply #18 on: February 06, 2010, 09:19:38 AM »

Doesn't the Enclave come with Mobil 1 FF?

It does not (or at the least the 09s didn't).

We will put Mobil 1 in ours as soon as all is broken in and seated properly as our Traverse sees 90% city driving for less than 5 miles at a time.

FWIW you can put in synthetic oil at *any* time.

Anyways the driving routine you describe is for sure hard on motor oil. Your OLM #s should be dropping relatively quickly. Also are you in a cold weather climate? Short trips in cold weather is a double whammy for oil  Oh No. For example my OLM is already at 65% and it has been only just under 3k miles as I too do lots of short trips in cold weather.
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« Reply #19 on: February 06, 2010, 12:10:34 PM »

thanks for the replies.  I didn't think 12k was unusual because my Malibu would do the same thing and was fine.  I also didn't think that dirty oil was the cause of the stretched chain.  I'll update my post after I talk to the dealership monday to see what they have to say.  Any other thoughts would be great!  I do have an early 09.  I ordered it and took delivery oct of 2008.
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