Timing chain discussion/CEL/P008 and P0017 - Chevy Traverse Forum: Chevrolet Traverse Forum
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post #1 of 894 (permalink) Old 01-07-2010, 11:56 AM Thread Starter
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Timing chain discussion/CEL/P008 and P0017

Hi Everyone,

I've recently started having problems with my '09 Traverse with the check engine light being on and the two codes P0008 and P0017 being stored.
The car has about 18,700 miles on the clock. Took it the dealer and they claimed to have cleared the codes and that they couldn't replicate the problem. They also said the 'engine oil was dirty'. The oil only had 3300 miles on it and I mostly do highway driving (changed ever 5K miles). So I had them change the oil and claimed this problem was resolved. Within 5 minutes of picking up the car, the check engine light came on again. Pulled my code reader out of the glove box and again the same 2 codes. Went right back and told them about it but I haven't returned it to be checked out again yet.

I know that the Acadias and Outlooks had timing chain issues that caused this type of problem but I would have thought this issue should have been resolved by the time the Traverses were released in late 2008. The car has reduced power and the gas milage has decreased by about 15-20%.
And with a bit of further internet research I found a document, PIP3423B, that doesn't list the Traverse but all of other GM models with the LLT LP1 and LY7 engines. Here is an excerpt from the document:

Condition/Concern: Vehicles with 3.6 LY7, 3.6 LLT or 2.8 LP1 may exhibit DTC P0016, P0017, P0018, P0019, P0008 or P0009.
Recommendation/Instructions: The reluctor for the crankshaft sensor pressed on the crankshaft may have moved. Refer to attached photographs for exact location. If the reluctor has moved then replace crankshaft.

Has anyone with an early model '09 Traverse had a similar problem?
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post #2 of 894 (permalink) Old 01-07-2010, 02:06 PM
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Re: Timing chain discussion/CEL/P008 and P0017

I think youre the 1st on here to report this issue on a traverse...

2010 FWD LT1-Gold Mist Metallic- seats 8.
Build Date- July 31, 2009-2nd day of Spring Hill 2010 production.
2013 Equinox 3.6L - 60,000
2010 Traverse 3.6L- 127,000
2003 Trailblazer 4.2L- 180,000
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post #3 of 894 (permalink) Old 01-07-2010, 02:10 PM
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Re: Timing chain discussion/CEL/P008 and P0017

I looked around and found this, it might be of some help. http://www.enclaveforum.net/index.php?topic=5526.0

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post #4 of 894 (permalink) Old 01-08-2010, 11:15 AM
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Re: Timing chain discussion/CEL/P008 and P0017

From page 9-42 of the Service Manual;

DTC P0008: Engine Position System Performance Bank 1

Circuit/System Description: The engine Control Module (ECM) tests for a misalignment between both camshafts on one bank of the engine & the crankshaft. The misalignment would be at an idler sprocket for either bank or at the crankshaft. Once the ECM learns the position of both camshafts on one bank of the engine, the ECM compares the learned values to a reference value. The ECM will set a DTC if both learned values for one bank of the engine are exceeding a calibrated threshold in the same direction.

Conditions for running the DTC:
- engine operating for > 50 seconds
- engine coolant between 0-95 C (32-203 F)
- calculated engine oil temp < 120 C (248 F)
- the engine must accelerate such that the CMP actuator system is commanded from the park position to the phased position. This is considered a cam control cycle. There must be a minimum of 2 cam control cycles for at least 2.5 seconds each, in the phased position.
- DTC 0008 run continuously once the above conditions are met, approx 600 seconds

Conditions for setting the DTC:
The ECM detects that both camshafts on either bank of the engine are mis-aligned with the crankshaft, greater than 6 degrees, for greater than 4 seconds or a cumulative of 30 seconds.

Diagnostic Aids:
The presence of DTC P0008 along with P0016, P0017, P0018 and P0019 indicates a possible condition with the primary timing chain and the alignment between both intermediate sprockets and the crankshaft. Or, the crankshaft reluctor wheel has moved and is no longer referenced to top dead center (TDC)
Observe the scan tool CMP Desired, Actual, and Angle Variance parameters before a DTC sets. This may help to isolate whether a condition is specific to one camshaft, one bank, or caused by a condition with the primary crankshaft timing.

Circuit / System Verification
1. Clear the DTCs with a scan tool
2. Allow the engine to reach the normal operating temperature.
3. Idle the engine for 10 minutes or until a DTC sets. Observe the DTC info with a scan tool, DTC 0008 should not be set.
4. Operate the vehicle within the "Conditions for Running the DTC" to verify the DTC does not reset.

Circuit/System Testing
1. Inspect the timing chains and tensioners for excessive wear or misalignment - repair as necessary
2. Inspect the crankshaft reluctor wheel for being mis-positioned on the crankshaft - repair as necessary


KK<br />Ontario, Canada<br />2009 Chevy Traverse LTZ AWD<br />Summit White / Light Titanium
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post #5 of 894 (permalink) Old 01-08-2010, 11:30 AM
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Re: Timing chain discussion/CEL/P008 and P0017

From page 9-49 of the Service Manual

DTC P0017: Crankshaft Position (CKP) - Exhaust Camshaft Position (CMP) Correlation Bank 1

Circuit / System Description
The camshaft position (CMP) Actuator system enables the engine control module (ECM) to change the timing of the camshafts while the engine is operating. The CMP actuator solenoid signal from the ECM is pulse width modulated (PWM). The ECM controls the CMP actuator solenoid duty cycle by controlling the amount of solenoid ON time. The CMP actuator solenoid controls the advance or the retard of each camshaft. The CMP actuator solenoid controls the oil flow that applies the pressure to advance or retard the camshafts. Ignition voltage is supplied directly to the CMP actuator solenoid. The ECM controls the solenoid by grounding the control circuit with a solid state device called a driver. The ECM compares the camshaft position or the camshaft angle, to the position of the crankshaft.

Conditions for Running the DTC
- engine operating for > 50 seconds
- engine coolant between 0-95 C (32-203 F)
- calculated engine oil temp < 120 C (248 F)
- the engine must accelerate such that the CMP actuator system is commanded from the park position to the phased position. This is considered a cam control cycle. There must be a minimum of 2 cam control cycles for at least 2.5 seconds each, in the phased position.
- DTC 0017 run continuously once the above conditions are met, approx 600 seconds

Conditions for Setting the DTC
1. The ECM detects one of the following conditions:
- The ECM detects a deviation in the relationship between a camshaft & the crankshaft
- A camshaft is greater than 10 degrees advanced in relationship to the crankshaft
- A camshaft is greater than 10 degrees retarded in relationship to the crankshaft
2. The ECM detects the difference between an actual intake camshaft angle and the locked position angle is greater than 15 degrees
3. The ECM detects the difference between an actual exhaust camshaft angle and the locked position angle is greater than 21 degrees
4. The condition exists for greater than 4 seconds or a cumulative of 30 seconds

Same Diagnostic aids as P0008

Circuit / System Testing
1. Ignition ON, observe the DTC info with a scan tool. Verify that none of the DTCs are set
2. Idle the engine at normal operating temp for 10 minutes. DTC should not be set
-> If a DTC sets, inspect for the following;
- The correct installation of the camshaft sensors
- The correct installation of the crankshaft sensor
- A timing chain tensioner condition
- An incorrectly installed timing chain
- Excessive play in the timing chain
- A timing chain that jumped teeth
- A crankshaft reluctor wheel that has moved in relationship to top dead center (TDC) on the crankshaft.
3. Operate the vehicle within the "conditions for the running the DTC".

KK<br />Ontario, Canada<br />2009 Chevy Traverse LTZ AWD<br />Summit White / Light Titanium
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post #6 of 894 (permalink) Old 01-08-2010, 11:35 AM
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Re: Timing chain discussion/CEL/P008 and P0017

nice info Double K.

2010 FWD LT1-Gold Mist Metallic- seats 8.
Build Date- July 31, 2009-2nd day of Spring Hill 2010 production.
2013 Equinox 3.6L - 60,000
2010 Traverse 3.6L- 127,000
2003 Trailblazer 4.2L- 180,000
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post #7 of 894 (permalink) Old 01-08-2010, 11:36 AM
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Re: Timing chain discussion/CEL/P008 and P0017

G_Tech - armed with this new information, please come back & advise us what the dealership tells you, or what they do to fix it. And like any good patient who's having heart troubles, please get a second opinion from a different doctor, I mean dealer.

KK<br />Ontario, Canada<br />2009 Chevy Traverse LTZ AWD<br />Summit White / Light Titanium
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post #8 of 894 (permalink) Old 02-05-2010, 12:57 PM
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Re: Timing chain discussion/CEL/P008 and P0017

Hi everyone! I just signed up for this forum after searching the code P0008 for my 2009 Traverse. I too had the same code come up when my check engine light came on at approx 40,000 in December. I had the light cleared and it stayed off for 2 weeks, then I had it checked and cleared again where it came on one day later. I brought it back to the dealership, they cleared the code and said it was all set, ten minutes later the light came on. It has been to the dealer 4 times now and GM has advised them that the engine oil was dirty and that "too much gunk" was built up on the timing chain. They also advised the dealership to change the oil and "flush it". After they did this the light stayed off for approximately 100 miles. Same deal, brought the Traverse back, where they changed the oil, reset the light and then it came back on after 10-15 miles. I just had the light reset this morning at the dealership and GM had told them to have me "record the mileage". It took 28 miles to come back on.

According to the dealership GM has not come across many of these issues and this is what they are having the dealers do. After I called the service advisor this morning to tell him the light came on after 28 miles and he told me that the service manager was going to contact GM again and let them know. He also warned me that they may need to take tear the engine down to find the problem, the issue with this is that there are no GM mechanics in my area who are "trained" to work on the engine. I'm frustrated because of having to go back so many times, what can I do?

HELP!
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post #9 of 894 (permalink) Old 02-05-2010, 01:26 PM
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Re: Timing chain discussion/CEL/P008 and P0017

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedSoxKev316
I just signed up for this forum after searching the code P0008 for my 2009 Traverse.

After I called the service advisor this morning to tell him the light came on after 28 miles and he told me that the service manager was going to contact GM again and let them know. He also warned me that they may need to take tear the engine down to find the problem, the issue with this is that there are no GM mechanics in my area who are "trained" to work on the engine. I'm frustrated because of having to go back so many times, what can I do?
This for sure isnt good. Very frustrating. For sure let us know how things progress.

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post #10 of 894 (permalink) Old 02-05-2010, 04:47 PM
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Re: Timing chain discussion/CEL/P008 and P0017

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedSoxKev316
Hi everyone! I just signed up for this forum after searching the code P0008 for my 2009 Traverse. I too had the same code come up when my check engine light came on at approx 40,000 in December. I had the light cleared and it stayed off for 2 weeks, then I had it checked and cleared again where it came on one day later. I brought it back to the dealership, they cleared the code and said it was all set, ten minutes later the light came on. It has been to the dealer 4 times now and GM has advised them that the engine oil was dirty and that "too much gunk" was built up on the timing chain. They also advised the dealership to change the oil and "flush it". After they did this the light stayed off for approximately 100 miles. Same deal, brought the Traverse back, where they changed the oil, reset the light and then it came back on after 10-15 miles. I just had the light reset this morning at the dealership and GM had told them to have me "record the mileage". It took 28 miles to come back on.

According to the dealership GM has not come across many of these issues and this is what they are having the dealers do. After I called the service advisor this morning to tell him the light came on after 28 miles and he told me that the service manager was going to contact GM again and let them know. He also warned me that they may need to take tear the engine down to find the problem, the issue with this is that there are no GM mechanics in my area who are "trained" to work on the engine. I'm frustrated because of having to go back so many times, what can I do?

HELP!
I'll try to assist here, if I can. I will give you facts, I'm confident you understand this issue cannot be handled with high emotion, threats, screaming or fists. It just don't work that way.

First, welcome to the Traverse site, you'll find much information from many fine folks.

You don't say where you are located, but you may be in line for the lemon law buy back, depending on your state. Where are you?

You also say you have 40,000 miles? on your vehicle, seems like a lot for a '09. Clarify, please.

Have you had a meeting with the dealerships' service manager or service director, regarding this issue? The service advisor won't help, at this point, you need to go beyond, perhaps way beyond. To take things in an orderly manner is the best approach, for you and for Chevrolet.

My initial concern is with the "management" of your dealership ..... it is glaring at me. If they have not had the interest to send their techs to GM Training for the engine, how caring are these folks about their business and their customers? To me, that's a real big red flag ! It tells me to get out and FAST !

I don't understand how the dealership has avoided the issue of training, since the ASM ( Area Service Manager ) from Chevrolet has all the facts and figures as to who is going to school and for what classes. GM Training has ALWAYS been a high priority, and with the technology in todays vehicles, training is even more important. Chevrolets' intentions are good, but the good intentions fall apart many times when it gets to the dealership level. Some dealers are simply not "customer orientated", when it comes to customer service satisfaction. A sorry statement, but accurate.

I don't see a happy ending here, at this dealership .... if the techs don't know what they are doing, it's an uphill battle. Don't allow this dealership to take your engine apart!! I would request, in a professional manner, the opportunity to sit down and speak with the Chevrolet Area Service Manager, who is the factory representative for your selling dealerships' service department. I would make this request either through your service manager, and if Mr or MS Service Manager acts like they're not interested in assisting you, I would contact Chevrolet Customer Service and ask them to make arrangements for you to take your vehicle to a Chevrolet facility where the techs are up to speed with training and the service management is willing to assist. If you have a problem with the person at Chevrolet Customer Service, ask to speak with the Chevrolet Customer Service Manager.

If it were my vehicle and I was going through the frustration you are experiencing, I would find another facility.

It is ALWAYS good to have Chevrolet guiding your direction as to where you go, for the next dealer will be well aware of your concerns ( through Chevrolet ) and the next dealer will be aware that you are an indivdual who knows and understands how to get assistance ....through Chevrolet.

My history is with Chevrolet, if I can assist here online, I will do my best for you.

Good Luck.

Bob

2009 Silver Ice LS FWD<br />Built 6/3/09<br />1951 Chevy Styleline Deluxe 2 dr. Mayland Black<br />Built 7/1951&nbsp;&nbsp; <br />1951 Chevy Sport Coupe 2 dr. Trophy Blue<br />Built 12/1950<br /><br />"Too many people spend money they haven't earned, to buy things they don't want, to impress people they don't like" .... Will Rogers
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